Oglesby vs. Abramowitz

Oglesby vs. Abramowitz

In which Suzanne Dupee, MD appears, quotes Sharone Abramowitz, MD, and recommends Sue Ralston, PhD. Also, Robbert de Klerk is appointed Children's Counsel.

Veronica Porras

BD458534.  Abramowitz vs. Abramowitz.  Tuesday, November 20^th, 2007.  Department 63.  Honorable Donna Fields Goldstein, Judge.  Reporter:  Veronica Porras, CSR 12703.  P.M. Session.

 Appearances:  For Petitioner, Charles A Ver Hoeve

                        For Respondent, In Propia Persona  [M.1]

Judge Goldstein

Abramowitz, BD458534.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Charles Ver Hoeve on behalf of Petitioner, Harold Abramowitz, who is present.

Judge Goldstein

And your counsel is not present, Ms. Abramowitz?

Mrs. Abramowitz

I no longer have counsel.

Judge Goldstein

Have you signed a substitution for him?

Mrs. Abramowitz

Am I allowed to sign the substitution for him?

Judge Goldstein

No.  Did he give you a paper to sign?

Mrs. Abramowitz

I sent a substitution to him and I have not received it in return.

Judge Goldstein

But he is not representing you anymore?

Mrs. Abramowitz

That is correct.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

I haven’t received anything.

Judge Goldstein

(to Mrs. Abramowitz)

You don’t wish him to be here today or—

Mrs. Abramowitz

Correct.  I no longer wish for Mr. Malak to represent me.  However, I do not feel equipped to represent myself, and I would like to seek reliable and adequate representation and have been trying to do so since September 18^th.  However, I have been unable to obtain a copy of the complete case file downstairs in the record room.  I’ve been informed by two employees from the Record Room and one employee from Room 426, the Self-Help Law Center, that my case file will never be available to me two weeks before any hearing.  So, since I have been unable to obtain my case file, I have been unable to seek representation because any possible attorney obviously needs to read my whole case file.

Judge Goldstein

Well, Mr. Malak will have a copy of the case file—

Mrs. Abramowitz

I’ve asked him—

Judge Goldstein

Don’t interrupt me.  In a case file prior to hearing usually is in this department and it can be secured from this department for any copying. (sic)  We can make arrangements through Room 426.  You cannot remove it from the premises.  Do you understand that?

Mrs. Abramowitz

I wanted to pay to have it copied, pay 50 cents a page to have it copied.

Judge Goldstein

What it is downstairs, and it can be done by—

Mrs. Abramowitz

Today?

Judge Goldstein

I don’t know.  Today we are having a hearing.  In any event, we are here for a psychiatric evaluation hearing and we’ll deal with your copying of your file at the end of that.[M.2] 

Mrs. Abramowitz

Thank you.[M.3] 

Judge Goldstein

Have the parties been sworn?

Officer Bryant[M.4] 

Do you solemnly state that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. Abramowitz

Yes.

Mr. Abramowitz

Yes.

The Witness[M.5] /Dr. Suzanne (Suzie) Dupée

Yes.

Judge Goldstein

Before we begin, on another note, Mr. Ver Hoeve, has my order of November 13^th been effectuated?

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Yes.  Mr. Abramowitz picked up the children that evening with the assistance of the police, although arrangements were made so their involvement as far as the exchange of the children [sic], and he’s had the children in his care since that date.  He’s obtained their birth certificates, and he’s ordered their medical records.  They haven’t been to see a doctor in approximately two years, so their files were moved to a storage area.  Those have been ordered.  He’s waiting upon receipt of those records.  And when he has the complete package, he’s going to enroll the children in school.

         He’s contemplating perhaps relocating from where he resides now with his father in Van Nuys to South Pasadena.  South Pasadena would be his first choice, so we’ll know—

Judge Goldstein

Is that for the schools?

Mr. Ver Hoeve

For the schools, yes.  So, hopefully, but that’s not set yet.

Judge Goldstein

Do you need the records to get the sufficient vaccination to enroll them now?

Mr. Abramowitz

I need any of the records to enroll them at all, and Harriet has sufficient vaccinations and Theodore has partial vaccinations.  And I made a doctor’s appointment for them for January 13^th.  As early as—so I don’t know if they will let him into school with partial vaccinations or take him to a clinic, but I can’t do anything until I have all the records.

Judge Goldstein

But you are getting the records?

Mr. Abramowitz

Yes.

Judge Goldstein

Okay, that’s an update.  Let’s start the evaluation hearing today.  Dr. Dupée, can you please state your name for the record.

Dr. Dupée

Dr. Suzanne Dupée[M.6] , S-U-Z-A-N-N-E, D-U-P-E-E.

Judge Goldstein

You were requested by this court to do a psychiatric evaluation of both Petitioner and Respondent?

Dr. Dupée

Yes, I was.

Judge Goldstein

And have you accomplished that?

Dr. Dupée

No.  I did the evaluation of father, but mother refused to cooperate.

Judge Goldstein

Let me ask you before we go into that if you would state for the record—the court has heard it many times—but for the record if you will state your qualifications.

Dr. Dupée

Sure.  I am a medical doctor.  I'm Board Certified in three Board Certifications, the first being in General Psychiatry, the second in Child and Forensic Psychiatry, and the third in Child and Adolescent Psychiatry.  I graduated from medical school at the University of Queensland in Australia, hence my accent, in 1991.  I practiced different disciplines of medicines, but currently psychiatry in the last eleven-and-a-half years.

         I trained—my residency training in psychiatry was at Cedars-Sinai, UCSD and NYU, the general psychiatry, child and adolescent psychiatry and forensic psychiatry respectively.  I'm on three Los Angeles County Superior Court panels, child custody evaluator panel, the dependency court panel, and the criminal court panel.

         Additionally, I'm an expert reviewer for the Medical Board of California.  I have a private practice and also worked[M.7]  part-time once a week at a clinic at [sic] Inglewood called Didi Hirsh Community Mental Health Center, where I treat children with psychiatric needs.  I also work one day a month for family court services to do psychiatric evaluations such as this.

Judge Goldstein

Can you tell me what you did in connection with the Court's order in this matter for psychiatric evaluation?

Dr. Dupée

I saw Mr. Abramowitz for psychiatric evaluation this morning.  I was given a time frame.  I was not able to do psychological testing because that takes a little bit of time to return the results[M.8] .  Nevertheless, we spent probably an hour or more, an hour-and-a-half this morning in speaking and getting the information that I needed from Mr. Abramowitz.

         I also reviewed the legal file.[M.9]   As I said, Mrs. Abramowitz refused to participate in the Court ordered evaluation.  And it seemed that there was some confusion or misunderstanding about exactly what she was signing.  More specifically, there was an authorization for release that we get all the people to sign and that's really for my release to be able to talk to individuals such as doctors, teachers, et cetera.

         She understood that to be her consent to participate in the evaluation, and that was explained to her this morning, that that was actually not the case, but she declined, or refused, which is what she told me.  I spoke to her briefly and she said she didn't want to participate because [sic] the matter of privacy.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Excuse me.  You spoke to me briefly in the hallway right now and not in your office; is that correct?

Judge Goldstein

Excuse me.  Please do not interrupt.  You can question at the end of it.  You can make comments, but you're not to interrupt while Dr. Dupée is talking.

Mrs. Abramowitz

I'm so sorry.  Thank you.

Dr. Dupée

That's true.  I just spoke to her.  I didn't see Mrs. Abramowitz for the morning and I just met her within the last ten minutes.

         So Mr. Abramowitz, in summary, does not present with any psychological disorders or problems that I can delineate from my evaluation today.  Briefly, he's a 40-year-old college professor and published writer.  He and Mrs. Abramowitz have two children, Harriet, age nine, and Theodore, age five.

         As your honor stated, there was a dramatic change of custody last week and the children are presently residing with father.  His sister has come down to help out with the situation, and I believe another sister from San Francisco, who is actually a psychiatrist herself, is coming down for the weekend.

         Mr. Abramowitz lives in a three-bedroom house that his father owns, but his father doesn't live there, in Van Nuys.  And, as he stated, is trying to secure another home in South Pasadena so that the children can be schooled.

         Mr. Abramowitz, Personal History:  Was born and raised in Los Angeles.  His father worked as a plumber and his mother was a secretary and an administrator.  His mother passed away in February 2006 at the age of 70 years for [sic—should be 'from'] unknown causes, but she had Diabetes and possible had Pancreatic Cancer.  His parents never separated legally, but actually lived apart for about ten years.

         Mr. Abramowitz is the youngest of four children.  He has three older sisters.  His oldest sister, Sharone, S-H-A-R-O-N-E, is 50.  She lives in Oakland and works as a psychiatrist.  She has a life partner and she doesn't have any children.  And I actually spoke to her this morning[M.10] .

         His other sister, Orit, O-R-I-T, 48, lives in Massachusetts.  She is married and doesn't have any children and works as a computer administrator.  His younger sister [sic] Judy, 47, lives in Mammoth Lakes, but, as I said, is living with Mr. Abramowitz temporarily to help out with the children, and she's a real estate agent.  She's never married and she does not have any children.[M.11] 

         According to Mr. Abramowitz, all of his sisters were close to the children and were attentive aunts, apart from the last two years when there has been less interaction due to the current custody situation.

         Mr. Abramowitz graduated from Grant High School[M.12] .  He went to a community college and then he transferred to UCLA where he was an English major.  He has a Masters in Fine Arts and a degree in Creative Writing and he's thinking about doing his Ph.D.  He has been on the faculty of Child-D—DDDrew [sic—Charles Drew], where he's a program director and is [sic] being a faculty member for the last eight years.  He said that he loves his job.  He's an avid reader.  He describes a very active social life with many friends in the literary world.

         He's never been married before this marriage and there have been no long or lengthy relationships.  He's had other relationships, but he's never been engaged.  He says that he has known Mrs. Abramowitz for the last 20 years, but for ten years they were romantically involved and then eventually got married after the birth of Harriet.

         He described that they had similar interests, that they were both writers and described Mrs. Abramowitz as a very successful writer and also a great teacher.  They both—he said that he was raised conservative Jewish and goes to synagogue sometimes, but not on a regular basis.  Nevertheless, when they were married, they celebrated Shabbat and the children went to Jewish Sunday School.

         Mr. Abramowitz has never seen a psychiatrist, psychologist, therapist or marriage therapist in the past.  He's never taken any psychiatric medications.  He's never been psychiatrically hospitalized.  There is a family psychiatry [sic—psychiatric] history of his middle sister, Orit, who has been diagnosed with some form of Schizophrenia, although it's a little unclear because she had some erratical [sic—radical] brain surgery when she was 17 years old and spent about 12 years recuperating, but hasn't alleged of been [sic] admitted to a psychiatric hospital and currently takes psychiatric medication, yet has been stable for many years and holds a job, is married, and again, doesn't have any children.

         Mr. Abramowitz describes a very close relationship with all of his siblings and his father.  Mr. Abramowitz is in excellent health, he drinks alcohol socially, there is no indication of drug use.  He stated that he smoked cigarettes for 20 years and stopped one year ago.

         Mr. Abramowitz is a tall, well-dressed male.  He was very pleasant, cooperative.  He was forthcoming with information.  He was confident.  His speech was normal and right in rhythm.  He was very articulate.  He described his mood as generally happy and he has a rich life with a lot of people around him, despite the significant problems that are going on at the moment in his personal life with his family.

         He described--his affect or observable mood was appropriate and stable.  His thoughts were linear, logical and goal directed.  I found no evidence of psychosis, mania, obsession, depression or compulsions and there was not evidence of suicidal or homicidal ideations.  Intellectually, he seemed very bright and there was no problems with his cognitions [sic].

         Mr. Abramowitz described the current custody situation as very difficult, especially since the two children had just moved back[M.13]  to his home.  He described that the children refused to call him dad, they call him by his first name, and he said that over the last year or more he had been going to see, I believe, it was from—I might be wrong on the exact dates, but from Summer 2006 until the court became more involved in, I believe, a year later, that he was trying to see the children by knocking on the door and just making sure that they were alive and there[M.14] .

         Nevertheless, he didn't actually see the children or talk to them and he said that they would run away.  He did this on an every other day basis, he said, for a long time, which seemed to attribute to his perseverance [M.15] and in this situation.

         He stated that since the children have come with him that they are very detached.  They seem very concerned about what they say.  A significant incident was that Theodore had never had a haircut at the age of five years old.  And Mr. Abramowitz took him for his first haircut this weekend[M.16] .  It took about an hour-and-a-half or so to relax and I think Mr. Abramowitz described a very appropriate method of helping Theodore through this process.  Nevertheless, when he came home, Theodore apparently wants to wear a Beanie all of the time.  And Harriet allegedly gave Mr. Abramowitz a lot of problems when he came home, verbally.

         Mr. Abramowitz describes that Theodore mirrors everything that Harriet does, and although there are times both children sort of come around, or are a little bit more warmer [sic] with him, nevertheless, he continues to wear a beanie within the house.

         Additionally, I mentioned [M.17] that I actually spoke to two of the sisters.  I talked to a Judy Abramowitz who has been living at the house for the last week.  She's the paternal aunt.  She described her observations about the children's behavior as quite disturbing[M.18] .  She said that they are not allowed to acknowledge their father as their father or nor would they acknowledge that she is their aunt [sic].

         She said that they told her that they had been told that they are not allowed to receive gifts from anybody else that's not their family or not their family [sic].  She said that they have very poor socialization skills in public.  She tried to take them to Color Me Mine, a ceramic painting store, so that they can be creative.  She said that the children wouldn't look anybody in the eye.  They were very rude to others, and she was mostly concerned about following visits with Mom, that all of the work that she and dad had done seemed to fall completely backward and the children would revert to even more disturbing behavior in what I've described, that they will only call him Harold, that they don't acknowledge him, that they don't talk very much to him; they won't acknowledge that she's their aunt.

         Also, Judy described the incident about the haircut and stated that when mother came with her, I believe, the ex-husband for Ms. Abramowitz, Steve Ogalvy (phonetic[M.19] ), that the whole family had beanies on for when they arrived for the visit.  I asked Mrs.—

Judge Goldstein

When was it?

Dr. Dupée

I believe it was Sunday night.  I'm not sure when the beanies incident was, but I believe Sunday.

Judge Goldstein

You agreed on Sunday Mr. Ver Hoeve?

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Yes, your honor.

Mr. Abramowitz

The order was Sunday and then—

Mr. Ver Hoeve

The court had ordered Tuesday and Thursday, but I think the parties needed to work something out slightly different.

Judge Goldstein

She has an all day Sunday and then two dinner visits.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Yes.

Dr. Dupée

Also, Judy stated that she's washed all of the children's clothes, that they were completely filthy and unke[m]pt.  She said that the children use a lot of disrespect and every other word that they say is hate.  She said that when they come back from visits with mom they had a more negative attitude [sic].  I asked Judy about her concerns about her brother.  She is his sister.  She seemed a reliable source.  She said that she has no concern about his mental stability.  In fact, she's quite impressed in [sic] how he's handled this situation in a step-wise fashion in making sure that what he's doing [is] in the best interest of the children. She says that he's wonderful with them and constantly tells them that it will be okay.

         She says that he—despite all of this his income has doubled and he's maintained his goals.  She said that she knows no past psychiatric history or problems with Harold.  She said that he [is] able to set boundaries appropriate with the children and described a good support network through their family and also friends.

         I also spoke to Dr. Sharone Abramowitz, who is the other sister, a psychiatrist who practices in the Bay Area.  She also had no major concerns about her brother's health.  She said that he has proceeded—

Judge Goldstein

You say she's a psychiatrist or psychologist?

Dr. Dupée

Psychiatrist.  He's proceeded in a step-by-step manner.  Even though he's stressed, she also is impressed with his attitude and ability to get through this situation.  She believes that he's doing what's best for the children, and she's coming down on Friday for the weekend.  As I said, I don't have any information on Mrs. Abramowitz because she refused to—Also Mrs. Abramowitz wanted to give me a form, but when I advised her that I have to give it to the other side, she did not want to do that.  She understood that she's learning the court processes [sic].

Judge Goldstein

What I would like to request to Mrs. Abramowitz--participate. 

(to Dr. Dupée)

I know you have not had sufficient time.  I have ordered by September 18^th, I began a full custody evaluation to take place through the county. [sic]  You don't do custody evaluations?

Dr. Dupée

Not through the county.

Judge Goldstein

And I don't believe we can do this privately with you, but I do want part of that evaluation was to have psychological and psychiatric evaluations of the parties.  I would like that psychological testing to continue of both parties, including the psychiatric evaluation of both parties.  I do believe given your background, it would be very helpful if you could interview the two children.  Is that something you do for the county?

Dr. Dupée

I could, yes.

Judge Goldstein

Since you've done this process, instead of having an evaluator, or a child interviewer with no background in this, and since your experience is with children, adolescents and with the history you've had in this matter, I believe you reviewed the file; is that correct?

Dr. Dupée

Yes.

Judge Goldstein

I think it makes sense to have you interview, do the child interviews.  And those are currently January 7^th.  I don't know if that's the date, it's a Monday.

Dr. Dupée

I could work that, that's fine.

Judge Goldstein

The two children. 

Dr. Dupée

Yes.

Judge Goldstein

Ms. Abramowitz, it would be in your best interest, I believe, for you to participate in the custody evaluation.  The current situation is a result of your refusal to comply with any of the court orders.  Your refusal to bring the children in for [sic] as ordered by the court twice for their interviews and you were warned that custody—you refused to bring them in, then the court would change custody.

         This court is going to require a custody evaluation that includes psychological testing and psychiatric evaluations of the parties in order to—because of some disturbing allegations in this case, including information that's come out today, to determine what is in the best interest of these two children regarding custody.

         If you don't participate, you don't give the court as many options as it should have.  You don't give us a full range of information and you don't allow us to have the information you would want us to have, I presume, in order to make a proper evaluation.  So I implore you to change your position and participate in this process.

         Custody evaluations are specifically authorized by the Family Code, by law. The court has authority to order custody evaluations.  The court has authority to request, as part of those evaluations, interviews of the children, interviews of the parents, and psychological testing and psychiatric evaluation.  Those are all customarily parts of these evaluations that are done by mental health professionals.  It is customary.  It's authorized by law.

(looks at Mrs. Abramowitz)

         Does anyone want to ask some questions of Dr. Dupée?

Mrs. Abramowitz

No.  Thank you.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

No, your honor.  Are we going to set up some dates for—

Judge Goldstein

We are going to set up some dates for further psychological testing.  Let me ask a couple of questions.

(to Dr. Dupée)

         I gather you found both the petitioner and his sisters, who, granted, are family members of the petitioner, credible in terms of their statements regarding the children's behavior in his home.

Dr. Dupée

Well, one sister.  The other sister hasn't been observed yet, but she's coming down Friday.  Yes, she seems extremely reliable.

Judge Goldstein

Did Judy, his sister, describe the manner in which she felt the things changed after visitation with the respondent?

Dr. Dupée

Yes.

Judge Goldstein

Was she specific?

Dr. Dupée

Yes.

Judge Goldstein

In what way?

Dr. Dupée

She said that they were more shut down, that they were—that they wouldn't interact with her and Dad at all.  She said that, in general, that Harriet was more disturbing after the visits and felt like, quote, 'That they were going backward,' (close quote) and felt like when they came back from Mom, the kids repeated that even more so, you're not my Dad, you're not my Aunt, you're not my family.  Judy, in particular, was very concerned that the visits were unmonitored and that Mom was possibly, I'm not sure she was allowed to, say things to the children, because she observed the difference in their behavior.  Although it's been very difficult, that there was a significant difference in the behavior after the visits with Mom.  Also the beanie incident was somewhat strange she described [sic].

Judge Goldstein

Did the petitioner describe any differences in the behavior?

Dr. Dupée

Yes, similar description.  That it's been difficult when they saw Mom.  And he wasn't as descriptive as Judy.  I found Mr. Abramowitz wanting Mom to be in the children's lives and really promoting a relationship with her, even given the circumstances.  He's certainly not wanting her out of the [sic] their lives, but really wants to do what's best for the children.  That was pretty evident.  Not only from him, but from the other two collaterals.  In fact, he was at times, I wouldn't say protective, but a little more not as descriptive of the situation, although he was very straightforward with what was happening.

Judge Goldstein

How long do you need for the psychological testing?

Dr. Dupée

Well, I need to see Mrs. Abramowitz, so I can get Mrs. Abramowitz in with Mr. Abramowitz in another room.  It's a test that they can do by themselves in another room.  It's about two or three hours for the testing, or so, and then an hour-and-a-half, or so, for the interview.

Judge Goldstein

(to Mrs. Abramowitz)

Are you going to agree to do the testing?

Mrs. Abramowitz

No.

Judge Goldstein

(to Mr. Ver Hoeve & Mr. Abramowitz)

Will you agree to do psychological testing?

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Yes.

Judge Goldstein

(to Dr. Dupée)

Do you want to schedule it with Dr. Dupée directly?

Dr. Dupée

Yes.

Judge Goldstein

Have either of you been contacted by the Evaluator's office?

Mr. Ver Hoeve

No, your honor.  When I went down for the 13^th to confirm the meeting with Dr. Dupée for today, I believe Ms. Louie indicated that it wasn't in their records yet that there was a full custody evaluation ordered.

Judge Goldstein

On September 18^th I ordered one.  Stipulate for order of appointment fee waiver, here it is.  I sent it down September 18^th.

Dr. Dupée

I actually had Mr. Abramowitz's parent questionnaire.  They're in the system and it was received on November 7^th.

Judge Goldstein

(to Dr. Dupée)

You should be in their system.  The record will reflect that respondent Mira-Lani Abramowitz has refused to participate in the psychological evaluation, the testing.  I don't know whether she's going to participate in the custody evaluation, but this is part of the custody evaluation.  So I don't know if she can participate in any further interviews with the evaluator, but we will have either party who is participating contact Dr. Dupée to schedule any further.

Dr. Dupée

Thank you.

Judge Goldstein

I've also appointed minor's counsel.  Robbert de Klerk.  Each of you are [sic] required to contact his office.  Do you each have his telephone number?

Mrs. Abramowitz

Your honor, I have contacted his office and left a message with his service.  I also want to say and ask at this time, is it customary that when a parent who comes here on September 18^th, as I did, and I don't know, you probably don't remember because obviously you're so busy, but when I said to you—the children—when you said the children are going to see Harold on Saturday with a supervised visitation, and I asked you what should I say to them, tell them, and you told me, you gave me words.  The words worked.  I did what you said, and the children, I think seven weeks, or several weeks, except for the one week where Harold wasn't able to pick them up, had supervised visitation with Kevin.  And it was going very well.  And I felt very heartened.  And I was—the words you gave me to say to them were the right words, and it was initially distressing to them, and then they cooperated quite readily with going on the Saturday visits, and that was working very well.

         I tried to get in touch with the Custody Evaluation office to find out more information, after having been compelled to sign the form before I left here on September 18^th, and was unable to get returned calls from them.

Judge Goldstein

You had counsel on September 18^th.  You weren't compelled to do anything.

Mrs. Abramowitz

When I left the courtroom, I was told I had to sign the authorization for release of information, RD164, consent before I left the room.  And then, luckily, I was able to find out that I could revoke that consent.  And also I—the few things—although I have evidence to show that I was supposed to receive something in writing from Mr. Ver Hoeve through Mr. Malak and never did.  Also, I did submit my income and expenses, because I remembered you saying something about us submitting income and expenses before October 24^th.

         I had no attorney to help me do this, but I made sure it got into the court before that date.  So my question is, is it customary when the parent is participating on those levels for this sort of situation to occur?  I cooperated with the visitation and I submitted my income and expenses.

Judge Goldstein

Just a second.  You were ordered twice to present the children.  That visitation was a temporary order until we can determine what the problems were.  There was an allegation of alienation, Parental Alienation, which I was concerned about.

Mrs. Abramowitz

When was the allegation made?  In chambers?

Judge Goldstein

It's in the papers.

Mrs. Abramowitz

I'll get the papers then.

Judge Goldstein

Before I even ordered monitored visitation, the reason it was monitored, it was not because of any conduct by the petitioner, it was because of your allegations that the children wouldn't be around the petitioner and the possibility that I concluded, based on the declarations of both parties, of possible Parental Alienation, which I have to tell you was not disabused by the report today, which I'll grant, it's only one-sided, but based on reporting today, certainly didn't disabuse me of that.

         I first ordered child interviews to be done with the minor children October 24^th.  The custodial parent is to bring the minor child to Room 228 for the interview at nine a.m. You were present with Mr. Malak at that time.

Mrs. Abramowitz

No, I wasn't.  I was not even here on that day.

Judge Goldstein

You weren't here on September 18^th?

Mrs. Abramowitz

I was here on September 18^th.

Judge Goldstein

Just a second.

Mrs. Abramowitz

I thought you said October 24^th.

Judge Goldstein

Of course you weren't.  You refused to attend.  On September 18^th, you were ordered to bring the children on October 24^th for child interview.  You were present.  You received that order.  And then there would be an 11 a.m. hearing in this court, at which time I would determine a more regularized custodial visitation, until the hearing on the child interview, very clearly, until the hearing on the child interview.  I gave him monitored visitation with Kevin Zemlicka, based on your claim that the children couldn't be with him alone.

         On October 24^th, you failed to appear.  Your attorney was present.  You failed to appear.  I set an order to show cause regarding sanctions against you for your failure to appear this date with the minor children as previously ordered.  That order to show cause includes an order as to why custody should not be changed.  I set it for November 13^th at 11 a.m..

         You were ordered on November 13^th to appear with the children at nine a.m. in Room 228 for a child interview and then 11:00 a.m. here for the hearing that was supposed to take place on October 24^th, and then a hearing on my order to show cause for sanctions.

Mrs. Abramowitz

I did not know that.

Judge Goldstein

Essentially, let me finish, essentially, I gave you another shot and told you that if you didn't appear, I was going to change custody.

Mrs. Abramowitz

And you told me through my attorney, right?

Judge Goldstein

Your attorney appeared on November 13^th.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Without my permission.

Judge Goldstein

And stated to me that he had advised you of this and that you told him that you would not bring the children, but that if petitioner wanted to make an interview date, he could bring the children, but that you would not comply with the court's order.

         Accordingly, on November 13^th, I changed custody.  That's the record.  And you're shaking your head yes as if you recall saying that.

Mrs. Abramowitz

I'm shaking it meaning, I'm listening, but I wasn't here for November 13^th or October 24^th.

Judge Goldstein

I understand.  Mr. Malak was here and I made a change of custody at that time.  Ms. Abramowitz, you either participate in these hearings or you face the consequences.  My concern is with these two children, who have been home-schooled, who apparently have been told that the petitioner is not their father, and that they are not—the allegations are that he's not their father and they are not to call him father and they are not to participate with him as a father.  I've made an order that they are to be enrolled in school now, that their doctor's records shall be updated, and it's up to you to come in and tell me why you should have custody, why you should be allowed to home school them, and why the situation where they will not acknowledge the petitioner as their father is not your fault.

         You've refused to cooperate at all in these proceedings.  You won't participate in the custody evaluation by participating with Dr. Dupée.

Mrs. Abramowitz

When you say I refused to participate at all—and I have turned in my income and expenses, Harold did not—

Judge Goldstein

That has nothing to do with custody.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Well, I need to learn all of this, judge.

Judge Goldstein

Well, maybe you should listen to your lawyer.

Mrs. Abramowitz

I have to get one.

Judge Goldstein

You had one for each of these hearings, which you failed to attend.

Mrs. Abramowitz

He was not able to adequately represent me.

Judge Goldstein

I know Mr. Malak.  I haven't had that problem in the past.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Excuse me, did you just say you know Mr. Malak?

Judge Goldstein

I've had him here before in court.

Mrs. Abramowitz

You've had him here before in court on a case other than mine and you haven't had that problem in the past?

Judge Goldstein

I never had.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Thank you.

Judge Goldstein

Your Income and Expense declaration has nothing to do with custody.  You need to cooperate in the custody orders that I made and in orders regarding an ability to determine who should have custody, where I have to make orders on the basis of the facts that I have.  You either participate in the gathering of facts or you don't.

         The next hearing, I'm going to do a review hearing with Mr. de Klerk, and I'm going to set it because I don't know when the custody evaluation or Ms. Dupée [sic] is going to be ready.  The psychological testing, I guess, will go into the custody evaluation, unless there is something that should be on calendar before then.

Dr. Dupée

I can probably have it done by January 7^th.

Judge Goldstein

I'm going to set a hearing that will include the testing just to make sure we don't have anything that I should know about.  Let's have a review with minor's counsel on January 7^th, 11 am., same time as the child interview.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Your honor, I believe the last time you wanted minor's counsel to visit the parties' homes.

Judge Goldstein

Yes.  Well, what I wanted minor's counsel to do is to assess change of custody orders by the court and possible alienation of the children by mother, which means he also has to meet with the children.  But he's doing it on a long-term basis to observe them over a long time as their counsel.  It's different.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Your honor, based on Dr. Dupée's report and the continued refusal of the Respondent, and her general attitude in today's proceedings, I'm concerned about the current order that allows the Respondent unmonitored access to the children.  I'm not sure how to address that, but I'm not sure just an admonishment to the Respondent is going to prevent her from further alienating behaviors that will cause further problems.

Judge Goldstein

Dr. Dupée, Do you have any insight into that?

Dr. Dupée

This is a very concerning case.  Even though I just learned about this case today, it seems that there is a lot of clarity in what is going on in many senses and I'm concerned about the level of alienation that I just heard about today, and the disturbing information about the status of the children, vis-à-vis their home schooling, or lack of home schooling, the five-year-old never having any haircut, nor medical attention, isolating themselves socially from, basically, the world, for quite some time.  And it seems like—I wasn't surprised to hear that when they are with Mom, things would revert.  I'm concerned about visits at all for a while, or even very limited visits, to give Dad—he seems a very appropriate and fit parent, in my opinion, on the very limited information I have, to be doing an excellent job in this concerning case.

         My concerns are very limited monitored, or even a break for a little bit, so that the children can settle in.

Judge Goldstein

Well, my concern is—you don't have time before January 7^th to interview the children?

Dr. Dupée

I can see them before January 7^th.

Judge Goldstein

The reason I do that is that I—Theodore is five years old and he's never been away from his mother.  And it's a long time to go.  You know, we do this hypothetically, but it's hard, you know.  I mean, I don't know what the ultimate recommendation is going to be.  Sometimes it's tough love and I understand that, but we haven't talked to the children and we all have a limited bird's eye view, in part, because the Respondent will not cooperate.  If Respondent had cooperated, it would have made it easier, but she will not cooperate.  So we only have Petitioner's viewpoint at this point in time.

         When do you think you can fit the children in?

Dr. Dupée

The 14^th of December.

Judge Goldstein

The 14^th will be fine for me.  December 14^th, be here at 11 and I'm going to ask minor's counsel to be here at this that [sic] time.  We'll give notice to minor's counsel at that time.  Pending that hearing, I'm going to suspend visitation.

Mrs. Abramowitz

About the hearing on December 14^th, how much time do I have to obtain my file and obtain counsel?

Judge Goldstein

I will make the file available from this court to bring it down.  Fernando can bring it down whenever you give us notice that you are going to come in.  It's my understanding that if we get told, we can bring it down to them.  They oversee the copying.

         Is there anything else on this matter?

Mrs. Abramowitz

They said they'll copy it for me, but they said they couldn't bring it down from here.

Judge Goldstein

We'll bring it down from here.  It can't stay down there.

Mrs. Abramowitz

If I come tomorrow morning, should I come here?

Judge Goldstein

No, because you can't accompany the file.

Mrs. Abramowitz

So, go to records.

Judge Goldstein

They'll call and we'll bring it down.

         Visitation is suspended until December 14^th because I want the children to be interviewed after a period of time in Dad's home.  Is that what you want, Dr. Dupée?

Dr. Dupée

Yes, even—I understand the very young age of the young boy, but I think Dad is able to provide a stable home with the support of his sisters, at the moment.  Just on the information that I have, and I'm very concerned about what I'm hearing about after the visits, and things will be—

Mrs. Abramowitz

Remember, they were taken on Tuesday and they visited on Sunday for ten hours and then yesterday.  So the 'behavior on their return from the visits' has to do with today.  The visits were Sunday and yesterday, that's what I'm saying, the first week they were taken.

Judge Goldstein

Okay.  Let's try to build up a relationship between Dad and the minors.  Do an order after hearing and serve minors' counsel.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Once I get an attorney, then my attorney would probably know what to do.

Judge Goldstein

He or she is to be here on December 14^th.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Thank you.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Thank you.

Veronica Porras

Proceedings concluded at 2:46 p.m..

Interlude

Linda Louie

In re the Matter of Petitioner:  Harold Abramowitz and Respondent:  Mira-Lani Abramowitz.  Number BD458534.  Child Custody Evalution.  Special Report.  Date:  Unknown  Time:  8:30 a.m.  Place:  Department 63, Central Court.  Evaluation ordered by:  Honorable Donna Fields Goldstein Judge.  Reason for the Report:  The Child Custody office regrets that the evaluation in this matter cannot be completed until a court date on or after 03-18-08.  The Attorney(s)/Pro Per(s) are to contact the Court to schedule a new court date.

Respectfully Submitted,

Linda Louie, M.S.W.

Administrator III

Family Court Services

Erin Jordan

Filed.  Los Angeles Superior Court. December 6^th 2007.  John A. Clarke, Clerk.  By Erin Jordan, Deputy.

Act V

Marla Chaloukian

Los Angeles, California.  Friday December 14^th, 2007, 11:09 a.m.

Department 63.

Honorable Donna Fields Goldstein, Judge.

Judge Goldstein

Let's call Abramowitz, BD458534.  Ms. Abramowitz, can you come forward, please?

Mrs. Abramowitz

I don't have an attorney.  Should I still come?

Judge Goldstein

Of course you should.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Okay.  Thank you.

Judge Goldstein

My understanding is you were going to seek counsel.

Mrs. Abramowitz

I am still attempting to obtain counsel.  Thank you.

Judge Goldstein

You're still pro per at this time?

Mrs. Abramowitz

I am not pro per.  I have no counsel.

Judge Goldstein

'Pro Per' means you're self-represented.

Mrs. Abramowitz

I am not self-represented.

Judge Goldstein

That's a legal question, if you're self-represented.  The court believes that a party who is here without counsel is self-represented.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Then I will have to leave.

Judge Goldstein

Ms. Abramowitz, would you please come back?

Mrs. Abramowitz

Yes, your honor.

Judge Goldstein

I want to explain to you that you have a right to be here.  You have a right to participate in these proceedings.  You are a party to these proceedings.  As a party to these proceedings, you have a right at all times to be present at these proceedings.  This is not a criminal matter.  In a criminal matter, where a party does not have counsel, the court can appoint counsel for them.  However, in this matter, in civil matters, parties either appear without counsel, which is called self-represented parties, or they appear with counsel, in which you would then be deemed represented.  That is a term of art.

Now, I cannot require you to be present.  But—well, actually, I can require you to be present.  And I don't know whether I ordered you to be present at this hearing.  Let me look at my last hearing.  This is the hearing for the child interview.  I'm not going to order you to be present during this hearing, although I could.  I have the authority to do that.  I believe it is in your best interests to be present.

The fact that you are deemed a self-represented party is not—it's a legal term, which is, in fact, what's happening.  Until you have counsel and have hired counsel, you are here as representing yourself.  That is the law.

         If you choose not to be present, I'm going to allow you to do that.  I want to make sure we have your current address, because there will be occasions where I will order you to be present with or without counsel.  And let's make sure we have your current address to send you notice of those hearings.

         Do you understand that?

Mrs. Abramowitz

I understand what you said, your honor.  And when we were downstairs, I heard an attorney in the hall telling a man who was desperate, 'You are stupid if you represent yourself.  Do not represent yourself in a matter of this kind.  You are stupid,' and I don't want to be stupid.  I want to do my best here, and I want—and I also want to say that it's my perception now that I have finally—I think November 27^th was the date I was finally able to obtain my case file and find all the papers that were associated with this case—and I realized that I am being accused of child abuse.  I'm being accused of something called Parental Alienation Syndrome.  That is a form of child abuse.  And, as such, I need to have an attorney representing me.

Judge Goldstein

This matter was filed in January of '07, Ms. Abramowitz.  There have been orders to show cause going on for months in this matter.  You have been indicating your intention to hire counsel for several months in this matter.  You have refused to cooperate in the Court's orders for child custody evaluations with Dr. Dupree—

Dr. Dupée

Dupée

Judge Goldstein

I always want to put an 'R' in there.

Dr. Dupée

Everybody does.

Judge Goldstein

I'm very sorry.

         With Dr. Dupée, to do any psychological testing or evaluations with Dr. Dupée, as ordered by the court.  You refused to bring the children in for the first two child interviews—

Mrs. Abramowitz

I did not know that I was supposed to.

Judge Goldstein

You had counsel present.

Mrs. Abramowitz

You told me I couldn't mention you or the judge or the court to the children.

Judge Goldstein

Just a second.  You had counsel during the beginning of these matters, who has substituted out because, I believe, as a result of your refusal to bring the children as he advised you.  Since his—when did he sub out?

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Your honor—

Mrs. Abramowitz

Actually, my counsel—

Judge Goldstein

Just a second.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Actually, my counsel did not ever give me any of the papers.  I did not know of any of the earlier mediation attempts until the August 15^th, the August 15^th mediation appointment.  He has never sent me my case file or my papers, and I told him that he had to give me my case file, because that's what I read was required by law.  I have never had adequate representation in this case, and I need to have adequate representation.

Judge Goldstein

Well, I believe you need to secure counsel.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Thank you.

Judge Goldstein

We're not here for anything other than to hear the report of the child interview.  Do you want to hear it, or you do not?

Mrs. Abramowitz

Yes, Ma'am.  I would like to hear it.

Judge Goldstein

Then have a seat.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Thank you.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Good morning, your honor.  Charles Ver Hoeve appearing on behalf of the petitioner, Harold Abramowitz, who is present.

Judge Goldstein

Who is present?

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Who is present, yes, your honor.  For the record, officially, I haven't received any substitution of attorney or any motion for withdrawal from Mr. Malak.  I would believe he still is officially attorney of record.

Judge Goldstein

Well, as of November—he was present at a hearing on November 13^th.  He was not present on November 20^th.  And the respondent appeared on her own, and she was listed as Pro Per—

Mr. Ver Hoeve

On my order—

Judge Goldstein

I have a substitution of attorney form attached to a letter from Ms. Abramowitz.  I think she indicated that she wanted to substitute her attorney out.  Let me see.  I also appointed counsel for the minors.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Yes.  Mr. de Klerk, who has been notified of today's hearing and the hearing for January 8^th, 2008.

Judge Goldstein

He's not intending to appear today?

Court Clerk, Erin Wright

I haven't heard from him.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

I haven't had—I have left him a phone message.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Excuse me, your honor.  Mr. Ver Hoeve wrote me a letter saying that Mr. de Klerk was not appearing today.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Your Honor, I prepared an order after hearing in which I indicated that today's hearing was going to be the child interview with Dr. Dupée and that Mr. de Klerk was to give minor's counsel report on the hearing on January 8^th.

Judge Goldstein

(to Court Clerk, Erin Wright)

Well, let's call Mr. de Klerk's office and see whether it was his intention to appear at the child interview.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

For the record, my initial—

Judge Goldstein

Has Mr. de Klerk met the children?

Mr. Abramowitz

No.

Judge Goldstein

Not yet?

Mr. Abramowitz

I left the message with him, but—

Mrs. Abramowitz

I also did, within 72 hours of your order.

Judge Goldstein

Did you set up an appointment?

Mr. Abramowitz

I never spoke to him.

Judge Goldstein

Well, you don't speak to him.  You set up an appointment with his office.

Mr. Abramowitz

It was his service.  There was no office staff.  And they said they would leave a message for him.

Judge Goldstein

Okay.  Because he has a law firm office that you call.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Yes.  And I faxed the letter shortly after the hearing on November 20^th to indicate to him that he was appointed as Minor's Counsel.

         As I was about to say, your honor, I have sent out two orders after hearings in regard to this.  In the first one I indicated that Mr. de Klerk was going to be giving a report today.  I withdrew that and sent a second one, a revised one, in which I indicated that—

Judge Goldstein

That was not what I had said.  I said January 7^th.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Exactly.  I obtained a copy of the minute order just to make sure I had it right, because when I went to clarify my notes, and when I realized it was incorrect, I sent a second set out.  So Mr. de Klerk has both of them.

Judge Goldstein

Well, why don't you file the order after hearing with the Court. 

(to Mrs. Abramowitz)

You have ten days to object to it.

(to Mr. Ver Hoeve)

If no objections, or if I rule on the objections, I'll sign it.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Your honor, are you speaking about November 20^th?

Judge Goldstein

November 20^th.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Thank you.

Judge Goldstein

Okay.  Let's swear the parties in.

(She looks at the Court Clerk, Erin Wright.)

Ms. Wright

I was getting his voice mail.

Judge Goldstein

I don't know.  Maybe he's out of town for the holidays.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

I will follow up with him.

[M.20] 

Judge Goldstein

Let's swear the parties and Dr. Dupée in.

Officer Bryant

Do you, and each of you, solemnly state that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you G-d?

Mr. Abramowitz

Yes.

Mrs. Abramowitz

I do.

Dr. Dupée

I do.

Judge Goldstein

Because of the nature of these proceedings, I view child interviews to be, in my mind, the same as if the children are testifying.  Because what this is, is that in lieu of having the children testify, I have the children interviewed by a qualified interviewer. [sic] And then the interviewer reports on what the children are saying.  Therefore, I want no one but the parties present in the courtroom.  So anyone but the parties, please leave the courtroom.  You can wait outside until the end of this part of the proceedings.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Excuse me, your Honor, are you saying I'm permitted to have no witnesses in the courtroom?

Judge Goldstein

Well, you have—

Mrs. Abramowitz

And also are you saying that, even though they (indicating Veronica Calderón and Steve Oglesby) are parties to the case—because both of them have submitted witness testimony—

Judge Goldstein

They're not parties to this case.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Oh, because Harold wrote me an email saying that they couldn't talk to the children because they were parties.

Judge Goldstein

Please—Ms. Abramowitz, they are not parties to this action.  I do not believe it is appropriate for anyone but the parties to this action to hear what the children have said during the interviews.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Thank you.

Judge Goldstein

Please wait outside.

Marla Chaloukian

All parties leave the room.

Judge Goldstein

Okay.  Would you please state your name for the record?

Dr. Dupée

Dr. Suzanne, S-U-Z-A-N-N-E, Dupée, D-U-P-E-E.

Judge Goldstein

And, Dr. Dupée, for the record, could you please give us your background.

Dr. Dupée

Sure.  I am a psychiatrist, a medical doctor.  I graduated from the University of Queensland in Australia in 1991.  I specialized in Psychiatry.  My training was completed at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles.

         After that training, I did further subspecialty training in child and adolescent psychiatry at the University of California, San Diego.  And following that I did another year of subspecialty training in forensic psychiatry at New York University.  Since completing those—that training, I have completed three—will be certified with three Board Certifications through the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology.  The three certifications are in General Psychiatry, Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, and Forensic Psychiatry.  I am on three—I am a member of three Los Angeles Superior Court panels.  One is the Child Custody Evaluators' Panel, the next one is the Criminal Court Panel, and the third one is the Dependency Court Panel.

         I'm also a medical reviewer for the Medical Board of California.  I have a private practice where I treat patients—children, adolescents, and adults with both psychotherapy and medication.  I work at a community mental health center doing treatment of children and supervision of training therapists and interns.

         I work periodically for the Family Court services doing evaluations, solution focused evaluations and psychiatric evaluations and child interviews, such as the one I completed today.  I also do private forensic work, which involves civil cases, criminal cases, and child custody cases.

Judge Goldstein

Okay.  Did you interview the two children of this matter, Harriet and Theodore?

Dr. Dupée

Yes, I did.

Judge Goldstein

Did you do that today?

Dr. Dupée

Yes, I did.

Judge Goldstein

Okay.  And can you describe the interview, please?

Dr. Dupée

Yes.  When I arrived at the courthouse, I believe father arrived with the children at the same time.  And mother was present with two other people.  I noted that when the children saw mother, they ran up to Mom and gave her a nice hug in the hallway.  When we all got settled, I brought Harriet and Theodore into my office—

         Just to give the court a description of the children, they're both very good looking, cute children, gorgeous, especially gorgeous hair.  And many people around the courthouse noted that.  Harriet has a beautiful red tinge to her hair.  It was very long.  It was sort of knotty, because apparently she doesn't like anybody else brushing her hair.  But even so, it was certainly very striking.

         Theodore had very thick hair and was also—he was very neatly groomed.  Both of them were neatly groomed.  They both carried little bags.  Harriet had a small handbag, and Theodore carried a little leather case with his Gameboy type of game in there.

         So when I got them both in the office, they were fairly resistant to being interviewed.  They sat down, and Theodore was noted [sic] throughout the entire period that he took all cues from Harriet.  Although, at the end, when Harriet became tearful—and I will mention that a little later—he was—he soothed her and was very comforting to her.

         But at the beginning I tried to discuss who I was and what I do.  And I asked them what a doctor does, and Harriet, being seemingly a very bright child, said, 'Doctors do therapy, which I thought was interesting, but also that their paternal aunt is a psychiatrist and had recently come down and seen them.

         Nevertheless, I asked them who [sic] they were living with, even though I knew the answer.  They said, quote, 'Harold.'

         And I said, 'Who is Harold?'

         They said, 'The black-haired guy outside.'

         Throughout the interview, they referred to their father, Mr. Abramowitz, as 'Harold.'

         To somewhat break the ice, we walked into a different room and gathered a bunch of toys and games for them to play with and came back.  This was a good exercise in making them feel more relaxed.  And towards the end of the interview, they seemed quite relaxed, although Harriet is quite emotionally distant at times and somewhat precocious in her manner of talking, in that she talks in sort of an adult style fashion and sort of a know-it-all fashion for her age.  But that could also be her age.  But she certainly was trying to be what appeared—what I deemed as more mature than she actually is.

         A couple of interesting comments were made by both children.  When I noted to both of them that—I noted the hair and said they both had gorgeous hair, Harriet said she wanted to shave her head.  I asked her why she wanted to do that.  She really wouldn't tell me.  We did talk briefly about Theodore cutting his hair [sic].  She said he didn't like that.  Harriet became quite upset about that fact because she believes that their father doesn't give them any decision-making power and that it should have been Theodore's decision whether or not to cut his hair.  Later in the conversation, when we were talking about decision-making, I told them that children sometimes have decision-making capacity, but a lot of the time that their parents have to make a lot of decisions.  And I gave them examples of things that they wouldn't be able to make decisions about.  They said that they liked—that they wear berets, although they didn't wear berets to the interview today.

         The children are both enrolled in school at Monterey Hills, I believe, Elementary School.  Theodore is in the fifth grade, and—not fifth—sorry.  Harriet is in fourth grade, and Theodore is in Kindergarten.  I'm sorry.  I was mixing them up.  They both seem to like their school.  They have made some friends there.  In fact, Theodore proudly said that he made eight friends, although he could only remember the name of one.  He also only remembered the name of one teacher, but he told me he had three teachers.

         Harriet also said that she made some friends and one of her friends was named Jessica.  We talked briefly about the schooling that they had with their mom.  They said that they were home schooled.  I asked them what home schooling meant, and they said when your mom is your teacher, and they [sic] educate you.

         Harriet said that her mother taught her math, spelling and, quote, 'Everything basic,' She said that—they didn't seem to give any indication that they detested the school that they're going to or any major problems with the school that they are in at the present time.

         I asked them about both parents, and I have a set of questions that I often ask children, first of all, telling me some of the good qualities of both parents—of each parent.

         When I asked them about their mother, they said, 'pretty much everything.'  Theodore would always defer to his sister.  Anything that she said, he would say the same as Harriet.  I did try to get a chance at the end to separate them, but that was a little fraught with some problems that I will not—not major problems—but there was a slight altercation in the hallway.

         Nevertheless, both children said that they liked everything about their mother and that they wouldn't change anything about their mother.  When I asked them what the good qualities of their father was [sic], they said, 'Nothing.'  They said, 'He's bad.  I don't enjoy being with Harold.'

         When I asked them what they would change about him, they both said, 'Everything.'  They said that—when I probed a little more about what the problems were with their father—they said, 'He's mean.  He screams a lot.'  And, as I said, Harriet made comments that she doesn't feel like their father gives them decision-making power.  Further in the conversation I asked her about—

Judge Goldstein

Did she use the words decision-making power?

[M.21] 

Dr. Dupée

Not 'decision-making power,' but she said, 'He doesn't let us make decisions.'  That was my interpretation.  But she did say 'he doesn't let us make decisions.'

         When I asked them what they—how they treat their father, Harriet said that she treats him well.  Although from information that she had told me, it seem like she doesn't want to talk to him or really be with him.  So that seemed a little in conflict about what she was saying and what she—and what she was describing.  She did acknowledge that she gets angry—that she and Theodore get angry with him.  They said that they miss their mother.  When I asked about what their mom—mother—had spoken about their father, the only description that the children consistently gave was that their mother told them both that their father was tall.  There was [sic] no other negatives.  There was [sic] no other positives about their father, apart from he was tall.

         Both children described that there was always fighting and yelling in the house when they were together, and Harriet was happy that they had split up.  I questioned her about this, because, I said, most children are often sad that their parents break up, but she seemed nonchalant about this issue.  She said that their father didn't pay—doesn't pay attention to them, and he doesn't care about them.  However, when I spoke to Theodore alone, he admitted that his father says nice things about him, such as 'You're a good boy.'  When I asked Theodore how that made him feel, he was not able to give me any distinct answer.

         A couple of interesting comments that were unsolicited during the evaluation [M.22]  was towards the beginning of the evaluation, Theodore spontaneously said, as we were setting up the game, that he was reborn, and he was reincarnated.  When I asked him what 'reborn' and 'reincarnated' meant, he said, 'When you die, you might get another life.'  When I asked him who told him about that, he said he'd always known about it.

         The other interesting comment was from Harriet, who said that the woman outside, I believe it's Victoria—

Mrs. Abramowitz

Veronica.

Dr. Dupée

Sorry—is a family friend, is her 'spritual sister.'  When I asked what that meant, she said that Veronica has known her since she was two months old, and that she has known Theodore since he was born, and that she is a close member of their family.  She described her as their sister.  I asked about what they have been doing with their father, what activities and what things they have been doing.  They said that they go out to eat in Chinatown because it seems that Dad doesn't cook very much.  However, they both admitted that there is food in the house and there are snacks in the house for them to eat.

         They talked about going to a place called Beta Level.  I'm not sure if it's B-E-T-A Level, which is—I couldn't get a real description of it.  But apparently it seems likes it's a place in Chinatown where father's friends are, and that they do performances there.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Nightclub.

Mr. Abramowitz

Yes.  It's not a nightclub.  It's a performance place where we have poetry readings.

Judge Goldstein

What's it called?

Mr. Abramowitz

It's called Beta Level.

Judge Goldstein

Can you spell it?

Mr. Abramowitz

It's spelled B-E-T-A, L-E-V-E-L.

Dr. Dupée

They said that they enjoyed going there.  They said that they enjoyed going to the restaurant.  They said that they particularly liked going to some of their father's friends, a woman called Allison, a friend of his called Allison.  They said they liked her the most.  They both said they enjoyed spending time with their maternal aunts when they were around.

Judge Goldstein

Maternal?

Dr. Dupée

I'm sorry.  Paternal aunts.

         When I asked—I had a—I asked them—they also mentioned Steve, who was apparently mother's former husband before Mr. Abramowitz.  He's the one who lived with—

Mrs. Abramowitz

He's the one who was here.

Judge Goldstein

Can you—please don't interrupt—

Mrs. Abramowitz

I'm sorry.

Judge Goldstein

Ms. Abramowitz

Mrs. Abramowitz

I'm sorry.

Dr. Dupée

Harriet said they call him 'Daddy,' and that he's their father.  Theodore said that they have two fathers and that 'he's our second one,' and both children said that 'we care more about Steve' than they do about 'Harold,' as they described him constantly [sic].  They never once called him their father.

         I spent a little time with Theodore, and I asked him what his three wishes—if he had three wishes, what would they be.  He could only give me one, and that was to go home, meaning to Mother's house.  I asked him about his father.  Again, he repeated that his mother doesn't say anything negative or positive about his father, apart from that his father is tall.  Theodore also mentioned calling Harold a troll, T-R-O-L-L.  I couldn't really cross [sic] the context in which he was describing this particular name.  However, at that time, when I spent a little time—

Judge Goldstein

Did he call him a troll or—

Dr. Dupée

I couldn't work that out.  It was sort of thrown in with the whole mix.

         But when I did spend a little time with Theodore alone, he did admit that his father says nice things to him, such as 'You're a good boy,' but he wouldn't admit how that made him feel.  When I separated the children—

Judge Goldstein

Did he ever admit whether his father was nice to him?

Dr.  Dupée

Yes, he did.  Yes.  He said that he is nice to him.

         When I separated the children, Harriet went out to the hallway and just outside the door, mother and her friend and partner were sitting on the bench.  Harriet went and gave Mother a hug.  I went back into the room.  Then I heard mother yelling outside, and I came out.  And apparently father was—well, I saw Father present.  And he was upset because Steve and Veronica were also giving Harriet a hug.  Father didn't approve of this and requested that they don't touch Harriet.  I shuffled Harriet back inside my room and told Mr. Abramowitz to go around the corner, to separate the parties.  Steve and Veronica were trying to tell me that they were family, and I corrected them saying that they're not family.  But I understand that they're family friends.

         Also, Steve repeatedly tried to approach me throughout the morning in order that he talk to me. [sic]  I advised him that he would be able to speak to the child custody evaluator[M.23] , but I'm not in that position today.  When Harriet came back into the room, she was very upset.  She was crying and broke down in tears.  And until we all separated, she was still crying.  It seemed very difficult for her.  It was very difficult for her.

         At that stage Theodore came to comfort her.  He didn't really say anything.  He just put his hand on her.  We took all the toys back to the other office, and the children got some books that we have to give to the children when they come into court.  Neither child picked out the books.  I had to pick out the books for them, and Harriet was still fairly upset when we left.  When we came out, Mother was waiting there, and Mother gave both children a hug and seemed very affectionate and appropriate, but by that time we had to get back to court.

         That's the end of my time with both children and the parties.

Judge Goldstein

Okay.  Do you want to ask any questions, Mr. Ver Hoeve?

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Yes.  Just briefly, your honor.  I don't have many questions.

Judge Goldstein

Remember, again, this is not a custody evaluation.  This is just an interview.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Okay.

         Just to clarify, Dr. Dupée, the children seemed to be adjusting well from the transition from the home school to the elementary school?

Dr. Dupée

From their comments there didn't seem to be any negative comments about going to school.  It was mostly positive or neutral.  I have had other cases that children have very vigorously complained about being in regular school from home schooling, but from what I can gather, it seems like it has been a good transition.[M.24] 

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Did the children have anything negative to say about their father?

Dr. Dupée

 Yes.  Harriet said he was mean, that he was—he gets angry with them—that  he yells a lot. 'He screams a lot,' she said.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Did he [sic] give any kind of specific examples?

Dr. Dupée

I asked and asked about why he screams and what happens and what the context is.  And she just wasn't—neither of them would give me any details about why that situation would occur.

Judge Goldstein

Did they give any detail of any specific instance?

Dr. Dupée

No.  And I asked them lots of times and—not lots of times, but as much as I could.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Okay.  Did they mention that they have been able to talk to their mother by telephone?

Dr. Dupée

Yes.  But—I didn't mention that.  They said they do talk to their mother by telephone, and they enjoy that.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Okay.  Thank you.

Dr. Dupée

You're welcome.

Judge Goldstein

Now, about the interview, not about custody or anything like that, do you have any questions to ask Dr. Dupée?

Mrs. Abramowitz

I have one.  Did you ask the children how many days they have been attending the new school?

Dr. Dupée

No, not exactly.  I didn't ask the specific days.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Three.

Judge Goldstein

Again, you're asking questions.

Mrs. Abramowitz

I'm sorry.

         So, you didn't ask them how many days they have attended the new school.  And did you ask them about the move they have undergone in the last couple of weeks with Harold?

Judge Goldstein

He—

Dr. Dupée

Yes.  I asked them—we discussed that they have moved from Mom's place to Dad's place.

Mrs. Abramowitz

No.  They moved from—I'm sorry.

         Did you ask them if they moved from Mom's place to Grandpa's place to Pasadena?

Dr. Dupée

Yes, actually.  I'm sorry.  I knew from the last interview with Mr. Abramowitz that he was trying to secure an apartment in South Pasadena, and in fact, they have moved to an apartment in South Pasadena.  A lot of information I didn't write down because I was playing with them and talking to them.  Harriet has her own bedroom.  Theodore has his own bedroom.  In fact, they mentioned Theodore has two rooms.  I'm not sure what that exactly is.  They said they didn't like the new apartment, but didn't give me specifics as to why they didn't like the new apartment.  But they said they don't like South Pasadena but didn't give me any reasons why, apart from the obvious, that they don't like living with Dad.  But otherwise, they said that they have moved.

Judge Goldstein

When they changed to South Pasadena, did they change schools?

Dr. Dupée

Well, I don't think they were in school beforehand, and so—

Mrs. Abramowitz

Excuse me.  May I—

Judge Goldstein

Please don't interrupt.

Mrs. Abramowitz

I thought this is when I got to ask questions.  I'm sorry.

Judge Goldstein

Did you hear me asking a question to Dr. Dupée?

Mrs. Abramowitz

I'm sorry.  I'm sorry.  Forgive me for wanting to give the answer.

Dr. Dupée

Well, when they were in Father's custody, they were not in school.  Dad was trying to secure a school when I last met with him, and he was also planning this move to South Pasadena.  And since that has occurred, the kids are now in school.  When they were with Mother, they were home schooled.[M.25] 

Judge Goldstein

(to Mr. Abramowitz)

Is that right?

Mr. Abramowitz

Yes, and—well, also, as I said in the last two hearings, we have had a difficult time securing medical records.  And we actually still have not secured the medical records, despite asking the mother for them, requesting them.  Also, we had to get—we actually had to get special permission from the Assistant Superintendent of the District to make arrangements for—I had to take them to have T.B. tests and waited for the T.B. tests to be read to enroll them in school.

Judge Goldstein

So this is just—they're just now enrolled.  When was it that they were enrolled?

Mr. Abramowitz

Monday we had the T.B. tests read.  They were both negative.  So they enrolled them in school, and they started Tuesday.

Judge Goldstein

This past Tuesday?

Mr. Abramowitz

Yes.  So they have been there Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday.

Judge Goldstein

Okay.  Thank you.

(to Mrs. Abramowitz)

Ma'am?

Mrs. Abramowitz

(to Dr. Dupée)

In other words, when you talked to the children, you did not ask them how many days they had attended the new school, meeting Jessica and the other new friends, not how many days; right?

Dr. Dupée

Yes.  I did not know how many days.

Mrs. Abramowitz

The other thing was, I hope that you understand that the children—I—I hope—

         Do you understand that the children were enrolled in a private school that happened to be at our home?  The affidavits are filed with the California Department of Education—[M.26] 

Judge Goldstein

This is not to testify.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Well, in terms of Harold getting records, all he had to do was write to our school, and we would have provided the records.

Judge Goldstein

This is not a question for Dr. Dupée.  In fact, there was no issue about the records.

Mrs. Abramowitz

(to Dr. Dupée)

It is just that you keep saying they weren't in school, and they have, in fact, been in school.

Judge Goldstein

We're not talking about that.  We're talking about since the change in the custody, Ms. Abramowitz.

Mrs. Abramowitz

I'm sorry.

Judge Goldstein

Okay.  (to Dr. Dupée)  Do you believe that pending the custody evaluation, completion of that, the children should be enrolled in therapy?

Dr. Dupée

Absolutely.  These children have a lot of underlying, pent-up emotions that were obvious to me.  But in a short period of time, a new person to them, I was unable to really get them to open up fully, although I think I got somewhere with them, although it went a little backwards at the end of the evaluation, which happens in these situations.[M.27]   But I believe that the children would greatly benefit from some individual counseling with a very experienced—

Judge Goldstein

Separately?

Dr. Dupée

Separately, yes.

         --From a very experienced therapist.  I believe they're in South Pasadena.  And I know Sue Ralston[M.28]  is in the Pasadena area, close by.  And I know she's done some work with parental alienation type situations and problems that are similar to this case. 

Judge Goldstein

Do you have insurance at your current employer?

Mr. Abramowitz

Yes.  I'd like to say I have already started—with the help of my sister, I have a list of the family therapists.  And I have already started researching therapists in the area.  I do have—it is covered under my insurance, yes.

Judge Goldstein

I don't know whether Sue Ralston is covered.  However, she does—

Mr. Abramowitz

She's on the list.  I don't know if she's covered or not.

Judge Goldstein

She's also on the Court's list of therapists who are on the Court's Family—the Court doesn't have a list, so to speak, of approved, just that they are on—I'm not exactly sure how—

Dr. Dupée

Actually, they are approved.

Judge Goldstein

(looking at the list)

They are approved, but it doesn't mean you can't go to someone else is, I guess, what I'm saying.  But Sue Ralston, I know is—she is on the list, but why isn't she here?  Maybe she's not on the list, but I have—I have seen her used a lot of times.

Dr. Dupée

Yes.

Judge Goldstein

Maybe she's on the Evaluators List. (looking at the list)  There she is.

Dr. Dupée

I know she does therapy also, by the way.

Judge Goldstein

She's on the Evaluators List.  She has Reunification Issues is one of the issues she works with [sic].  So you might want to check with her.  I do think the children need to be, and I'm going to order that the children be enrolled in individual therapy.  They both should go at least once a week.

Mr. Abramowitz

I agree.

Judge Goldstein

I know this was just—this is not a custody evaluation.  So I'm not going to—this was something—simply an interview.  But is there anything at this interview that strikes you so dire [sic] that you believe that in your—because of your training, that you think the court should do now, rather than wait for the custody evaluation?

Dr. Dupée

Well, I will say that it is very striking, the level of alienation, given such a short evaluation time.  It's very typical answers by the children.  I have evaluated Mr. Abramowitz and testified last time based on my—I haven't—I haven't interviewed and evaluated Mrs. Abramowitz because she refuses to participate in that, despite court orders and strong court suggestions even.  But I'm concerned about some strange behavior, just by my observations.  And also just from the history of the children.  The long hair and the—some—that they don't seem to be well socialized sort of children, although very bright children.  They cling to each other, which I think is normal in this situation.  But I'm concerned about some possible inappropriate behavior by Mom towards the children that could further impede Father's reunification with the children, although I think it is going to be a long journey.

Judge Goldstein

Are you requesting, or do you believe by anything you have seen, that the Court should reverse any of the—pending the custody evaluation—that I should reverse any of the pendente lite orders I have made so far in Dad's custody?

Dr. Dupée

No.  I think custody orders are great in this particular case.  The only concern I have on the other side is that Mom is actually very affectionate with the children.  And they miss her.  So I'm concerned about—I know they have been separated for the last two or more weeks.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Four.

Dr. Dupée

But since we last had our hearing—and sometimes in these cases, that's what sort of needs to happen for a longer period of time.  Although I know she has had some phone contact.  I think it would be up to a custody evaluator to really determine what is really in the best interests for them.  But that's going to be a few months' time.  I understand the Court's dilemma in that situation.  At minimum, I think I testified last time of having a monitor because of impulsivity and problems with mother that I'm concerned about, given from the history from the father [sic] and also from the children and also my observation of the her [sic] behavior.

Judge Goldstein

I would like to see the children have some contact with Mom, but in a manner that I don't think sets them back.  I think the contact has to be with Mom alone, not with the extended group, with Steve and Veronica and the other people, that I think will set the children further back in the reunification with Father.[M.29] 

         Is it still your position that you won't—you do not wish to participate in the custody evaluation?

Mrs. Abramowitz

It is now my position that I do not wish to answer any questions without an attorney.

Judge Goldstein

All right.  You know, I don't even know that we need Minor's Counsel.  I don't know what Minor's Counsel is going to do in this case.

Dr. Dupée

Yeah.  I don't know what it will add.  The evaluation will be a very important process.

Judge Goldstein

Are you doing the evaluation?

Dr. Dupée

No.

Judge Goldstein

You don't do evaluations?

Dr. Dupée

Not through Family Court Services.  It will be assigned to somebody else.

Judge Goldstein

Dr. Kenan does them.

Dr. Dupée

Through Family Court Services?

Judge Goldstein

No.  He does it privately.

Dr. Dupée

Yes.

Judge Goldstein

I wish we could keep you on.  These children need—

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Your honor, is that not a possibility?

Judge Goldstein

I don't know.  If she's—if she's paid for privately.  The only way it can be done is if she can be paid.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

I understand.  Mr. Abramowitz's financial situation has improved somewhat from when the case first began, although now we have, obviously, more expenses.  There is going to be child care for both children.

Judge Goldstein

These are expensive.  They run—

Dr. Dupée

I could bend—up to, but—yeah, I could bend it.

Judge Goldstein

They run ten to $15,000.

Dr. Dupée

I have actually done a lot—I have done some of it, but—

Judge Goldstein

What do you think?

Dr. Dupée

I have done some of it.  I interviewed Dad.  I have interviewed the children a little.  I would have to do a home visit with Mom.

[M.30] 

Judge Goldstein

Have you given him the tests yet?

Dr. Dupée

Yes.

Judge Goldstein

The MMPI and all that stuff?

Dr. Dupée

And do the testing.  See Mom's house, see Dad's house.  I would be—I would be willing to work out a situation with the family privately if that would work.

Judge Goldstein

Probably be a lot less than that though.

         (to Mr. Ver Hoeve)

Well, you can talk to Dr. Dupée outside and see what she thinks it would run and work out a situation.  All right.  Okay.  Thank you very much.

Dr. Dupée

You're welcome.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Thank you, Dr. Dupée.

Dr. Dupée

You're welcome.

Judge Goldstein

I appreciate it.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Your honor, two points.

Judge Goldstein

Just a second.

         Okay.  We have to talk to Mom about this case.  What are your two points?

Mr. Ver Hoeve

I believe that the contact would need to be monitored to make sure it's just between the mother and the children.  And same should apply to the telephone contact.  Mr. Abramowitz has indicated to me that the telephone contact that has occurred has been with both the mother and Mr. Ogilvie (phonetic)[M.31] , which has been problematic.

         The second point was at 12 o'clock, Mr. Abramowitz needs to make sure the children are picked up.

Judge Goldstein

The children are taken out; okay.

         The telephonic contact will be only between Mom and the children, not with the extend parties, because I believe it is interfering with the reunification.  And to the extent there has been alienation, I think it reinforces it.

         Two, what was the prior visitation, Sundays?

Mrs. Abramowitz

Judge, about the telephone contact, the way that he set it up is they're allowed to call me once a day, and he times it.  Is that how you want to keep it?

Judge Goldstein

What did I give it, 15 minutes?

Mr. Abramowitz

Actually, I have not timed it.  I think—

Mrs. Abramowitz

Half an hour.

Mr. Abramowitz

--After a half hour to 40 minutes, I think that's reasonable for them to move on with their day.

Mrs. Abramowitz

But he doesn't let them call me every day.

Mr. Abramowitz

Excuse me, and Lani has given them an 8:30 a.m. time to call.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Well, not anymore, now that they're in school.  That was before they were in school.

Judge Goldstein

Ma'am, can you not interrupt constantly?

Mrs. Abramowitz

Oh, I don't know.

Judge Goldstein

Come on.  Why don't you just let one person talk at a time.

Mrs. Abramowitz

What would you do, Judge Goldstein?

Judge Goldstein

I wouldn't behave this way in court.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Right.  We shouldn't even be in court.

Judge Goldstein

What's the prior—we have to go.  What's the prior order for telephonic contact?

Mrs. Abramowitz

There was none.

Judge Goldstein

Telephonic contact is generally once a day.  What time is convenient?  Do you want to do the evening?  The afternoon?  Or you're at work so—

Mr. Abramowitz

Evening.

Judge Goldstein

Seven thirty to 8:00?  What time do they go to bed?

Mr. Abramowitz

I like them to be in bed by 8:30, your honor.

Judge Goldstein

All right.  Seven to—are they usually home by 7:00?

Mr. Abramowitz

Yes

Judge Goldstein

Seven to 7:30 every evening.

Mrs. Abramowitz

And if they don't call me, am I allowed to call?

Judge Goldstein

You're allowed to call them if they don't call you.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Thank you.

Judge Goldstein

But the only parties on the phone will be you and the children, and only 7:00 to 7:30.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Okay.

Judge Goldstein

There will be no discussion of this case.  There will be no discussion of custody.  There will be no derogatory comments made by either party about the other at any time.  Have you been given all these rules?

Mr. Abramowitz

Um-hum.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Yes.

Judge Goldstein

They are to be followed during any visitation.  Your prior visitation was on Sundays; is that right?

Mrs. Abramowitz

My visitation was suspended completely on November 20^th.

Judge Goldstein

I understand, but prior to that—

Mrs. Abramowitz

I had one Sunday and one Monday dinner before my visitation was suspended.

Judge Goldstein

I understand that.  The visitation was every Sunday from 9:00 to 7:00, after school on Tuesday and Thursdays, 5:00 to 8:00.  Right?  I want to reinstate visitation, but I want visitation to be monitored at this time.  And it cannot—it has to be someone—I can't—it can't be 9:00 to 7:00 to have it monitored.

         Do we have someone who can monitor the visitation?

Mrs. Abramowitz

May I think of somebody to recommend possibly—

Judge Goldstein

It's not going to be—

Mrs. Abramowitz

--just like Harold did?

Judge Goldstein

Yes, but it needs to be—

Mrs. Abramowitz

What about the people they were already visiting with, the Zemlickas, Harold's monitor?  Could I ask them, because I also know them?

Mr. Abramowitz

I'm sorry.  She doesn't know them.

Mrs. Abramowitz

I was their teacher. 

Officer Bryant

One at a time, please.

Mr. Abramowitz

They're not going to be—they're not comfortable in contact with my wife.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Are you sure?

Mr. Abramowitz

Yes, I am.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Oh, okay.  Thank you.

Judge Goldstein

I'll let the parties—if the parties cannot resolve this, you can either come back at 1:30 on this issue.  Come back, come back at 1:30, and we will talk about a monitor.  Otherwise, it will have to be professional monitoring, and you can all talk about getting a monitor.

Mrs. Abramowitz

If I get to see them on Sunday with a monitor, and whoever the monitor is, if the monitor is willing, am I allowed to bring them to the home or do I have to see them, like, out in the world?  Are they allowed to come back to my house, or not?

Judge Goldstein

With the monitor.  If you select a monitor who goes, quote, 'off-site.'

Mrs. Abramowitz

Um-hum.

Judge Goldstein

Yes.  Which is more expensive.  If we get a professional monitor, you pay for it.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Um-hum.

Judge Goldstein

There are off-site monitors, where they will go with you to your home and different places.  You understand that Steve is not going to be there, and Veronica is not going to be there.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Well, I'm starting to grasp it, and I'm trying to figure out the logistics.

Judge Goldstein

Okay.  Come back at 1:30.

Mrs. Abramowitz

Okay.  Thank you, Your Honor.

Marla Chaloukian

A lunch recess was taken at 12:05 p.m..

Act V Curtain

Act VI

Marla Chaloukian

Los Angeles, California; Friday, December 14, 2007

P.M. Session

Department 63

Honorable Donna Fields Goldstein, Judge

Judge Goldstein

Abramowitz, BD458534.  Mr. Abramowitz, please come forward.  It is 1:45.  I have waited 15 minutes for Ms. Abramowitz.  She has not appeared.  Present, however, is Mr. Michael Malak—

Mr. Malak

Yes, your honor.

Judge Goldstein

--Who has appeared as Ms. Abramowitz's counsel on November 13^th.  Thereafter, on November 20^th, Ms. Abramowitz did appear in pro per.  And I want to be very careful regarding my recollection.  And the record is—let me see if it is in here, actually.  I don't think it is in the minute order.  I believe she made a representation to the court that you would not be representing her any longer.  You know, I get lots of cases.

         Mr. Van de Hoeve—Ver Hoeve—I do it every time.  Mr. Ver Hoeve, do you—

Mr. Ver Hoeve

That's fine, your honor.  That conforms to my understanding as well.  In fact, yes, it was my understanding.

Judge Goldstein

Mr. Malak, is it your understanding, whether you do or—I don't have a substitution of attorney.  However, a party can come in and represent that they have fired their lawyer, discharged their lawyer—

Mr. Malak

Relieved counsel.

Judge Goldstein

--And are now representing themselves.  Relieve counsel of their obligations.  But you haven't filed a substitution, nor has she filed a substitution that she's representing herself.  Is it your understanding that you are currently representing her, or not?

Mr. Malak

No, your honor.  I have been relieved.  I have been told that there are financial issues.  I won't go farther than that.  And also that—that I would not be her counsel anymore.  And I have made that same representation when we met in chambers last time.  [M.32] Mr. Ver Hoeve will recall that.

Judge Goldstein

Has she told you she doesn't want you to represent her anymore?

Mr. Malak

Yes, your honor, in writing[M.33] .

Mr. Ver Hoeve

I would just be concerned, your honor, that at the end of this process for Mrs. Abramowitz to come back and say, 'Well, Mr. Malak is my attorney.  I never really got rid of him,' and there is nothing on the record showing that Mr. Malak was, in fact relieved.

Judge Goldstein

Well, if Mr. Malak wants to remain here as a friend of the court until Ms. Abramowitz—just so that Ms. Abramowitz's interests, since she is not here, are protected.  She has not returned to court.  It was a 1:30 call after we left at 12 o'clock.

         There is very little left to do but for me to reiterate my order.  My order was—we have not specified what the time was—that I was going to re-institute some visitation, which I had suspended on November 20^th.  I also re-instituted daily, or specified, daily telephone communications that were to be only with the Respondent between 7:00 and 7:30 at night.  She may have Sunday visitation between 12:00 and 3:00, monitored.  She may have—this hearing at 1:30 was for her to come in and suggest her own monitor.  Not to be a member of her extended family.  That is, not to be Mr. Ogilvie [sic] or—I don't know what Veronica's last name is.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Calderón, C-A-L-D-E-R-O-N.

Judge Goldstein

Calderón.  Someone is outside.  Is that her?

         But someone not so—and someone acceptable to the petitioner.  If she finds her own—if she finds her own monitor, and it is acceptable to the Petitioner, that's fine.  Otherwise, let's use a professional monitor.  She can find a professional monitor who monitors off-site.

(to Court Clerk, Erin Wright)

Do you have a list of those?  Because there are a list of off-site monitors, to ask about monitors who will go out of her home or other professional monitor locations.  Give this list to Mr. Ver Hoeve, and he can send it to her with the notice of the order of the court.

         Every Sunday, 12:00 to 3:00.  I think that's—that's going to be the extent of the visitation I'm going to order at this time, based on Dr. Dupée, who is an extraordinarily well-qualified and credentialed child, adolescent, and forensic psychiatrist, who we are extraordinarily lucky to have in this courthouse, who interviewed the children and who has been present at hearings with both parties, and who has testified and examined the Petitioner, has recommended visitation.  The children are obviously bonded to the Respondent (Mrs. Abramowitz).  Those visitations are to be only with the Respondent (Mrs. Abramowitz), and not with anyone other than the monitor.  I had inquired of the Respondent (Mrs. Abramowitz) whether she would reconsider participating in a custody evaluation.

         (to Mr. Ver Hoeve)  Are you going to use Dr. Dupée for the full evaluation?

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Yes.  After the morning hearing, your honor, we had a discussion, and Dr. Dupée indicated that she would be able to—[M.34] 

Judge Goldstein

Work with you?

Mr. Ver Hoeve

—work  with us in regard to this.

Judge Goldstein

I'm going to have—for the full child custody evaluation, I'm going to appoint Dr. Dupée, because she's done so much work already that she believes it won't be that much additional work to complete the child custody evaluation in this matter.  He (Mr. Abramowitz) does not have to go down to the evaluators downstairs, who would have to start all over again, getting information from Dr. Dupée.  [M.35] 

         However, I asked this morning whether the Respondent (Mrs. Abramowitz) would reconsider her refusal to participate in the evaluation, and she indicated that she would not answer until she sought advice of counsel—until she retained counsel.  So at this time she is still refusing to participate in the custody evaluation.  That evaluation will proceed, [M.36] and I think it is unfortunate if the Respondent (Mrs. Abramowitz) does not participate in it.  She's not doing herself or the children any good by that refusal.  And she (Mrs. Abramowitz) does not assist herself in presenting her case contesting the conclusion that the Respondent [sic—she means 'the Petitioner' (Mr. Abramowitz)] has asserted and he (Mr. Abramowitz) wishes the court and the evaluator to make if she refuses to participate.

         I'm going to set a date for return on the evaluation and for status on how the kids are doing.  I think the evaluation probably will be done in three months.  The kids are in school.  Let's keep them in school.  I have ordered the children into individual therapy, separate therapy.  They are each to have their own individual therapist.[M.37]   (to Mr. Abramowitz) You've got—you're lucky that you have insurance.

Mr. Abramowitz

Oh, yes.

Judge Goldstein

And then I want them to get started in therapy.

Mr. Abramowitz

Right.

Judge Goldstein

It will hasten the process of their—

Mr. Abramowitz

I agree.

Judge Goldstein

--becoming acclimated to you as 'Father' and not as 'The Guy With The Dark Hair.'

Mr. Abramowitz

Right.

Judge Goldstein

(to Mr. Malak)

Did you want to say something?

Mr. Malak

The only thing I wanted to say is I'm honored to be here as a friend of the court.  My client has consistently—my former client has consistently objected to any psychiatric evaluation of the children.  I'm sure if she were here, she would object to—

Judge Goldstein

Their being in therapy.

Mr. Malak

—their  being in therapy.

Judge Goldstein

That was the strong recommendation of Dr. Dupée, that these children, who she believes have bottled up strong emotions and some—you weren't here for her—that they have some socialization problems and odd behaviors, that these children need individual therapy very badly, and strongly recommended that it commence immediately.  And she has provided some names[M.38]  that she recommended in the area in which the children are now living.

Mr. Malak

Perhaps Mr. Ver Hoeve will include that in his notice, because my client does not communicate with me.

Judge Goldstein

She was here for the report, and it will be in the order, because I ordered it.

Mr. Malak

Because I don't receive answers to telephone calls or to—

Judge Goldstein

Well, I understand your being relieved.

Mr. Malak

—or emails.

Judge Goldstein

I'm just having you here in an abundance of caution that she says that you were counsel of record and you were not here.

Mr. Malak

Yes, your honor.  Thank you.

Judge Goldstein

If you're not her counsel, then you're just here as a friend of the Court.  And that's it.

Mr. Malak

Thank you.

Judge Goldstein

All right?  I'm just trying to cover all the bases, so to speak, because she has not returned.  She saw you here.  I have no idea why she did not return.  I know it's my impression that she does not want you as counsel, but I view it as no harm, no foul if you are here for me to recite the order.

         I'm going to set this in three months.  I'm going to bring you back in March.  Either party, including, Ms. Abramowitz, when she gets counsel, can bring an ex parte or put on an Order to Show Cause if there is a need.  But I'm going to set it for—please give Dr. Dupée notice of this—that I'm setting for receipt of the Custody Evaluation for mid-March, three months, because most of this is done, and for status on how the children are doing.

Ms. Wright

March 18^th.

Judge Goldstein

March 18^th.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Very good, your honor.  The Minors' Counsel's report hearing—

Judge Goldstein

I'm going to take that off calendar, and I don't believe we need Minor's Counsel at this time.  I think with Dr. Dupée having now interviewed the children and doing the custody evaluation, that that was inadvisable, and I'm rescinding the order.[M.39] 

Mr. Ver Hoeve

I'll give notice to Mr. de Klerk.

Judge Goldstein

I'm reversing my order appointing Minor's Counsel.  You can tell him I have un-appointed him.

Mr. Malak

I'm un-appointed?

Judge Goldstein

No.  Minor's Counsel.

Mr. Malak

Oh, Minor's Counsel.

Judge Goldstein

It doesn't make sense.  Too many—the kids are not going to—I don't believe, given what she has told us, what Dr. Dupée has indicated, that Minor's Counsel would be appropriate at this time.  I may need to appoint him later in the case as they become more communicative.[M.40] 

Mr. Malak

I believe that would comport with Ms. Abramowitz's wishes also, that the children not have independent counsel at this time.

Judge Goldstein

She hasn't given us any wishes, other than she doesn't want to be in court.

Mr. Malak

Is there any need your honor—under the Code of Civil Procedure, I believe I can make a speaking motion to be relieved.  Will there be—

Judge Goldstein

You may not make a speaking motion.  It is not consistent with the Rules of Court.  You need to look at the Rules of Court.  There is a checklist under the Rules of Court.  It's three point something.  I don't have it at my fingertips.  But I cannot do it Ex Parte.  I will not do it Ex Parte.  I will not do it as a speaking motion.  It requires a checklist of actual notice and a certain amount of time.  The rules are very specific on motions to be relieved as counsel.

Mr. Malak

Which I have prepared.

Judge Goldstein

Has she signed your substitution?

Mr. Malak

I have not heard back from her since I sent it.

Judge Goldstein

You gave it—

Mr. Malak

I gave it to her.

Judge Goldstein

She didn't sign it outside?

Mr. Malak

No.  I didn't—I saw her go down the stairs outside.

Judge Goldstein

She didn't even stop?

Mr. Malak

No.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

I understood from what Mr. Malak said that he mailed it to her prior to today.

Mr. Malak

That's correct.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

When Mr. Abramowitz and I came down here at about 1:15, Mrs. Abramowitz and Mr. Ogilvie [sic] and Ms. Calderon were standing outside at about 1:25.  And I was speaking with Mr. Malak.  Then they, in a rather determined fashion, marched towards the escalators.  And we have not seen them since.

Judge Goldstein

Okay.  Well, we're in recess.  That's the order.  Please prepare an order after hearing.  Good luck.

Mr. Ver Hoeve

Yes, your honor.

Marla Chaloukian

The proceedings concluded.

---

 does this mean?  Look it up.

 [M.2]Judge Goldstein decides to go ahead with the hearing despite the fact that Mrs. Abramowitz is not represented and no substitution of attorney has been filed.

 [M.3]Unaware that she has just been denied her right to an attorney, Mrs. Abramowitz thanks the judge.

 [M.4]Double-check that this is Officer Bryant.

 [M.5]See note about name of witness (above) re:  Veronica Porras.

 [M.6]Rhymes with ‘Bombay,’ see ‘Bewitched,’ starring Elizabeth Montgomery.

 [M.7]Find out if  she still works there. 

 [M.8]Ackerman Quote

 [M.9]The same morning?

 [M.10]Did she tell you that the life-partner is a former client, one whom she seduced during therapy?  (cite sources)

 [M.11]Incestuous relationship with her little brother?  Learning disability?

 [M.12]And what about Middle School?  Thrown out for marijuana?  Miliken?

 [M.13]back?

 [M.14]Witness statements:

 [M.15]Yes.  Batterers have lots of perseverance.

 [M.16]On Shabbat.  And not to a 'manly' barbershop, but to a 'baby' place, 'The Yellow Balloon' on Ventura Blvd. in Studio City.

 [M.17]Actually, you mentioned speaking to one sister.  Why lie when you are going to give the information anyway?

 [M.18]Did she describe her observations or did she describe the children's behavior?

 [M.19]Oglesby

 [M.20]Point of Law.  Mr. Ver Hoeve should not have independent contact with children's counsel.

 [M.21]Care to speculate about the intent of the Judge's question?

 [M.22]Inteview?

 [M.23]On December 6^th, the Child Custody Office filed a form cancelling the evaluation.

 [M.24]Home Schooling.

 [M.25]The court orders disrupted the children's schooling.

 [M.26]home schooling

 [M.27]Situations where children have been separated from their mothers and find out they are not being returned to their mothers?

 [M.28]Susan Ralston, Ph.D., 260 S. Los Robles Ave., Pasadena, CA , 626-795-6972

 [M.29]Mother's 'family'.

 [M.30]Ackerman/Standards of Practice/Court Rules

 [M.31]Oglesby

 [M.32]September 18^th?  Before the first hearing began?

 [M.33]Mr. Malak does not present the evidence.  An actor playing him might put his hands in his pockets.  (Ghost of Truman Capote)

 [M.34]Ackerman, APA, Court Rules

 [M.35]Due process?

 [M.36]Cite court rules/law

 [M.37]This order was never followed.  When the children went to therapy, they saw one therpist.  First, Dr. Sandra Arroyo, then, after a six month hiatus, Dr. Linda Bortell.

 [M.38]Sue Ralston.  One name.  Sue Ralston.

 [M.39]Covering up malpractice?  Regardless of the role Minor's Counsel actually play in the Los Angeles Superior court, the children still had a (technical) right to be represented by counsel (who had already been appointed) before being subjected to a traumatizing psychiatric interview.

 [M.40]How are Minor's Counsel and Psychological Forensic experts being used?  L.A. Examiner?  Predicted results of brainwashing the children?